Mrs. Tuchman,

I was fairly surprised that I rate so much attention from you and Mr. Unz if we, those who spend time in USEnet, "don't represent the grass root Latinos" as Mr. Netkins asserts. I am flattered by all the attention given to my post, which was, by the way, not a detailed e-mail message discussing the `English for the Children.'" Anyone interested in the original post can find it at http://www.dejanews.com/ and searching for message <33C52227.41C6@ucla.edu>.

I regret that I have not responded as rapidly as you might have wished but I am rather busy due to professional and personal circumstances. Furthermore, I wanted to give you a cogent response that would cover the points that you raised. As is the custom in e-mail, my response is interleaved with your message, denoted by the ">" symbol. I am also taking the liberty of responding to both yours and Mr. Unz's note in this reply.

I am also very sorry to see that you have chosen to post your note solely to your Web site (http://www.onenation.org/tuchmanexchange.html), bypassing the opportunity for public comment that you would have gotten if you had posted it as a response to my post in the soc.culture.mexican.american USEnet newsgroup. Incidentally, I noticed that you have edited your original note, why? Since you have made your correspondence public, I have chosen to do the same. This note is being posted to that newsgroup as well as forwarded to selected individuals, most of whom I do not personally know but should be very interested on your views. Any further correspondence from you will meet the same fate.

Firstly, let me respond to your note:

> Dear Mr. Urrutia or is it Dr. Urutia?

If you wish to follow protocol, it is Dr. Urrutia. But Mr. will suffice.

> I want to thank you so much for giving the newsgroups information about our > Web site!

You are welcome. Too bad you won't participate.

> I would like the opportunity to meet you sometime and discuss our initiative.

I am afraid that is not possible in the near future. Too busy to do it in person.

> It seems a bit bold and pompous on your part to characterize me, "a peroxide
> blonde from Texas by way of Santa Ana, Ca. and a poster child who bills
> herself as LULAC Woman of the Year for 1988."

You misquote me. I said that you are the poster child of the initiative, not of LULAC. To the best of my knowledge, LULAC, both at the National and State level, disavow your "efforts" and are very far from being LULAC's current poster child.

> Now I hope these comments aren't meant as sexual harrassment, especially
> since you have never met me or know about my life and background.

Certainly not.

> True, my hair is blonde now, which is better in my estimation than gray. I
> don't find that unusual, since most women my age do color their hair. My
> grandmother (Margarita Matta) nicknamed me "guera" when I was growing up and
> they used to call my father,"guero." There are many blondes, brunettes, red
> hair, black hair and green, blue, brown, black eyes in my family. We are
> very proud of our Hispanic Culture, Language and Heritage. My family is
> very supportive of my efforts. Not only my Hispanic family, but my
> husband's Jewish family give their love and support for my efforts!

Wonderful. It is good to know that you are proud to consider yourself a Hispanic.

> True, I was born in Pecos,Texas. I was subjected to racial discrimination,
> segregation and suffered indignities against Mexicans comparable to that
> suffered by Black Americans in the South. I can't even boast that I began my
> life in the barrio. My first home was a "railroad boxcar" and then luckily we
> were able to move to the Mexican barrio. One of my father's many jobs in
> trying to keep tortillas on the table was working in the cotton fields for a
> $1.00 a day.
>
> I am very proud of my parents for sacrificing and giving me the opportunity
> to attend college to seek a teaching degree. I was the first in the family
> to achieve a College Degree from Arizona State University. My parents were
> instrumental in giving me that drive for an Education and chance to succeed.
> I never felt poor, but I know we were!
>
> My parents have always given back to the community as a thankful reminder to
> God of their appreciation for their achieved successes in life. They have
> been successful business owner's for 44 years of Matta's Mexican Restaurant
> in Mesa, Arizona and were put on the "Hall of Fame" by the State Restaurant
> Association.
>
> My father was appointed by the Governor of Arizona in the '50's to the
> Arizona Civil Rights Commission, and my mother served as National 2nd Vice
> President of LULAC. They were both instrumental in starting the first "Head
> Start" programs in the state of Arizona. My parents were also Man and Woman
> of the Year in their city.
>
> My step-father, Dr. George J. Garza was National President of LULAC in the
> '50's and helped create the "Little School of 400" which became the model for
> Head Start program nationwide. He is also on the "Hall of Fame" at Southwest
> Texas University and the second Hispanic to ever be included there, Tomas
> Rivera was the first. He served as Chief Education Advisor for the U.S.
> Department of State in Bolivia, Guatemala and El Salvador, as well as
> Washington D.C. He was my mentor for the issue of bilingual education.
> (He also helped draft the bylaws for LULAC in 1929 since he was the only one
> literate in English.)
>
> Yes, I am very proud to be the "poster child" of LULAC, an honor that I
> don't take lightly. I was given that honor in 1988 for my efforts to Reform
> Bilingual Education at the State and National Level for the U.S. Department
> of Education, as well. I also was an advisor for Orange County MALDEF
> Leadership Group and worked with John Palacio, Director of MALDEF on a
> drop-out prevention program at the middle schools in Santa Ana. I have given
> presentations to MALDEF on this particular issue as an invited guest.

I am indeed impressed by your pedigree. Clearly, you are very proud of your personal history. It is dissapointing that you have not included these nuggets in your official biography found in your Web page. There is, however, one thing you should point out to the editor of the "Matta News," which you so graciously faxed me: Mexico did not win its independence from the French on a 5 de Mayo, contrary to the misinformation passed around. Parentethically, I regret to inform you that I have no wish to trumpet my achievements as you requested in your fax. Doing so clashes with the modesty that I was taught to cultivate.

Nevertheless, I do not see the connection between yours and your family's accomplishments and the subject of your campaign. Those deeds are squarely against what your initiative wants to do. I am astonished that your Web page claims that "our children deserve the education that our ancestors got." It is common knowledge that previous generations of Spanish-speaking immigrants as well as U.S. citizens were taught English in the most horrid manner. For example, it was fairly routine to punish students for speaking Spanish in the playground, never mind the classroom! Mind you, this is not something I learned from a textbook, but from first sources. Of course, since no full-fledged socio-statistical study has been undertaken to examine the consequences of these policies, we will never know how it affected the competitiveness of the nation to have marginalized this segment of the citizenry.

Furthermore, I find it very puzzling that you display so much pride in LULAC's accomplishments and your work with MALDEF when both organizations are involved in "Mexican nationalism and cultural brainswashing" according to Mr. Netkins. He claims, in your Web page (http://www.onenation.org/ysnetkin.html), that these organizations "have their constituents convinced that the U.S. owes them their culture." Politics indeed create strange bedfellows.

> I have many accomplishments that I have achieved in my life, but my greatest
> achievement is the gift of English Literacy to English Learners. I have
> always worked with minority children for 33 years and was the only teacher to
> volunteer to teach in an all 'black getto' along with black teachers in one
> of the first Head Start programs in Central Phoenix in the '60's.
>
> I volunteer my time at Alice Callaghan's, Las Familias del Pueblo Center in
> downtown L.A. I am sure she would welcome a Professor from U.C.L.A. to
> volunteer as well. Where were you when the Latino parents were crying for
> help for their children to learn English? They had to boycott the school
> system to get someone to help them. The parents are not going to be lied to
> any longer. That is why we are doing this initiative for them!

I regret to inform you that my professional and private life do not allow me to commit to such a large time investment as you do with Sister Callaghan's program, for which I congratulate you. As for the situation at 9th St. School, I am not privy to the the details pertaining to that case. However, I do know from other cases that there is plenty of blame to parcel out. Sometimes school administrations are not very receptive to parents concerns. But just as often, parents have no idea of the many factors that go into teaching English to non-English speakers who have no support structure at home (e.g., no English is spoken, heard, or read at home, and there is no prior knowledge of a grammar that can be "translated" into English).

> I would welcome you to come visit me at Taft Elementary, in Santa Ana anytime
> to actually see English Learners accomplishing English Literacy! I teach lst
> grade. It is not "sink or swim!" In fact, many children are becoming
> tri-lingual. We have a deaf and hard of hearing program on campus and the
> children are integrated. It is an English-Immersion School in Santa Ana
> Unified School District.

Thank you for the invitation. Unfortunately, I have no possibility at this time to accept it. However, I am sure that others would like to do so. Would you be as interested in extending that invitation to someone else? More importantly, is SAUSD aware that you are offering these "fact-finding" tours? Won't such visits interfere with your students' learning since they would be subjected to what is, in effect, a circus atmosphere?

> I teach University classes on the "Failure of Bilingual Education", as well.
> Perhaps, you would like to invite me to address your Physics & Astronomy
> classes on this subject. I have been considered an "expert" in the field of
> Bilingual Education. I would be delighted to address your classes on this
> subject, since you have taken such an interest in this subject. I would be
> pleased to see some of your articles and research on the subject of Bilingual
> Education.

Very interesting. I searched the database of the Library of the University of California and could not find any scholarly article authored by you in its extensive listings. Possibly your articles do not meet the requirements to be considered for inclusion. It is therefore very peculiar that you are "considered an 'expert' in the field of Bilingual Education." To avoid this possibly unjust perception, perhaps you can include your bibliography in your Web page, as well as the name of the University with which you are currently associated.

Surely you jest when you ask for my articles and research on that same topic. As you must know by now, I am a practicing physicist and that, in this day and age, is sufficient to keep my scholarly interest well focused. However, that does not preclude me from publishing my personal opinion in an obscure USEnet newsgroup. Please remember that my note did not tell people what to do but to educate themselves on this important issue. Hence, my aim was solely to generate a discussion and not to present a "learned" opinion (in fact, I go to great lengths to not display my academic credentials, except in my private e-mail).

> My head is not up in the "clouds" as to the Failure of Bilingual Education,

Perhaps not. But you certainly are way off the mark when your organization claims that "if it [the initiative] passes, today's immigrant children will be given the same opportunity to become educated, productive members of society that our own immigrant ancestors enjoyed." This statement is ludicrous given the way U.S. citizens of Mexican descent, never mind immigrants, were treated by the educational system in the not too distant past.

> particularly for Latino students. Latino parents will not be ignored any
> longer as to their request for English for the Children. This initiative will

It is my understanding that procedures exist that allow parents to by-pass the requirements set forth by the State Department of Education and know for a fact that they are routinely exercised, no always to the benefit of the child. Whether they are being followed by any of the myriad bureacracies is another issue altogether. Your initiative is driven by the English Only lobby as made very evident in the first "whereas" of Article 1, Section 300 of your initiative. (Incidentally, the language of this paragraph is extremely chauvinistic and, dare I say, offensive to many outside U.S. borders.) It ostentatiously wants to teach English to children and their parents, but is, in reality, an attempt to declare English as the official language of the country. Since U.S. English has stalled, the next natural target is proscription of any language other than English in educational matters. That is the heart of your initiative, notwithstanding its pious patriotic declarations.

> empower them to make a "choice." Read the initiative again! It allows for

I did. It looks like a swiss-cheese as it is so riddled with loopholes and places the burden of proof on the immigrant parent who is, more likely than not, ignorant about what it takes to prove their case and/or their rights in this litigation-based society. In fact, one of these loop-holes is large enough to drive a truck: under this initiative you have given any school district authorization to refuse to provide bilingual education, even when the child has clearly defined needs for such an education (Section 311, part c, where it reads:

"The existence of such special needs shall not compel issuance of a waiver, and the parents shall be fully informed of their right to refuse to agree to a waiver."

I am not a lawyer, but everything in this section seems designed to discourage any parent from pursuing their rights to an appropriate education for their children.) I am sure that your friends at MALDEF will have a field day with your initiative, when it does pass.

> parental exceptions and even gives the parents the right to bring a lawsuit

It is very interesting to note that you suscribe to the notion of "that which is not explicitly approved is prohibited." Isn't it common sense to bring a grievance of this magnitude to court? What is the need for this explicit "authorization?"

> against those that would deny them access. I am sure our opponents are very
> afraid of parental empowerment!

I am not sure who you are referring about when you speak of your opponents. Who are "they?" Care to identify them? But no need to answer, consider this a rethorical question.

> Alice Callaghan and I look forward to hearing from you. It's easy to hurl

Pardon me, but I did not see Sister Callaghan's name in the e-mail header. Is she also privy to your e-mail? By the way, doesn't the fact that you are so closely associated with her "Center" puts you in a conflict of interest by having written Sections 315 and 316 of Article 4 of your initiative? Again, I am no lawyer, but it seems to me that the allocation of those funds would be a windfall for organizations such as the one run by Sister Callaghan, in which you appear to have a significant stake as a "volunteer." Also, Section 316 strikes me as a recipe for financial mismanagement since it allows local school boards complete discretion in the disbursal of such funds, with only a minor fig leaf from the State's Department of Education

> insults, make judgements, but harder to sit down and dialogue with someone
> about the issues and gain insight for another point of view.

Insults? An insult is an unfair characterization or slur based on a lie. In my post, I said three things in reference to you:

1) a peroxide blonde,
2) the poster child of the initiative, and
3) a vendida.

I admit that Number 1 is a catty remark. However, you have freely admitted to dyeing your hair. Number 2 is very obviously addressed by the third point of the text describing the "facts" of the initiative:

"(3) Anti-bilingualism has become linked with anti-immigrant sentiments. There is a strong public perception that many opponents of "bilingual education" are using the issue as a cover for anti-Latino and anti-immigrant views. Unfortunately, this is often true. On the other side, private polling indicates that anger at "bilingual education" is a leading cause of anti-immigrant sentiment among California Anglos. Having individuals with strong pro-immigrant credentials lead the move away from "bilingual education" would help to decouple these two issues. "

Clearly, you are one of those individuals since you are presented as the co-author of the initiative, loudly trumpeting your "credentials" and political activism. In my biased opinion, your claim to fame is, at best, dubious, and it is obvious that you are the "Ward Connerly" of this initiative (I guess your backers couldn't use Linda Chavez since she is already associated with U.S. English). Number 3 is justified by the company you keep. Acuerdese que nunca se junta un coyote con un venado. Therefore, these three statements do not look like insults to me.

As for sitting down and dialoguing, your associates have made it very clear that they are not interested in doing anything of the sort. They could have posted their comments where my remarks appeared. They chose, instead, to contact me privately in a rather cantankerous manner. When I invited them to post their rebuttals, they rebuked my invitation to participate in the newsgroup, labeling us as irrelevant to the electoral process. Instead, they referred me to the Wall Street Journal op-ed page, a newspaper that is devoted to the high-end business person. Is that venue any more relevant to the average California-based Latino voter than USEnet? I seriously doubt it.

> Sincerely,
>
> Gloria Matta Tuchman,
> Co-Chair for the English for the Children Initiative
>
> P.S. My group, the State Committee to Reform Bilingual Education, REBILLED,
> opposed SB 6, (Alpert/Firestone Bill). Maybe, you'd like to inquire why?
> I am the Chair of REBILLED.

It is clear that SB 6 is not strong enough for your backers since it allows for the possibility of bilingual education while your initiative does not.

Now I will answer Mr Unz's note:

> I just recently received a copy of your e-mail posting regarding our
> anti-bilingual education "English for the Children" initiative. My > co-proponent, Gloria Matta Tuchman, has apparently already sent you a
> reply regarding her personal background which you alluded to, and I
> would similarly suggest that you examine my entry in the "People"
> section of our web site
>
> http://www.OneNation.org/
>
> which contains a number of my articles and other writings from the past
> few years, providing a very clear presentation of my views on this and
> other related issues. As you will see from these, I was indeed a very
> strong opponent of Prop. 187 (as you message had indicated), but a very
> strong and early supporter of Prop. 209 (contrary to your statement). I

Mea culpa, Mr. Unz. I read that note that you are refering to and I was obviously obfuscated by its language. Please accept my apologies for misrepresenting your position.

> am also a theoretical physicist by training (elementary particles and
> quantum field theory), and believe that with regard to social policies
> such as bilingual education one should follow Mao's dictum to "seek
> truth from facts". After 25 years, an annual failure rate of 95%

Please note that many "facts" are very much subject to interpretation, regardless of what Mao said. (Incidentally, what makes you think that I am familiar with the Great Helmsman's aphorisms? Are you red-baiting me or what?) In fact, do remember that modern physics is based on one such incident. Galileo was forced to recant his observations of Earth's motion given the irrefutable "facts" presented by the learned advisers of the Church. We now, of course, concur with Galileo in that "it moves."

If you wish to cloak your claims with some dubious respectability please cite the source of your "95% failure" figure. I am sure that you know that figures lie and liars figure. As far as the poll conducted by that bastion of impartiality run by Linda Chavez, the Center for Equal Opportunity (of which you are one of its advisers, something that you don't disclose in your Web page), I must remind you of Mr. Clemens pithy saying of "there are lies, big lies, and statistics." Honest public policy cannot be conducted in the same manner as selling detergent. This particular survey (http://www.ceousa.org/poll.html) was clearly designed to ellicit the type of responses Ms. Chavez' funders look for (and it is woefully inadequate, 600 respondents from 5 cities to base all your claims? Give me a break!). What immigrant, in his right mind, is going to say that they do not want their children to learn English? Given this slant, you cannot assert, in all honesty, that you are promoting this initiative because of the lofty goal of uniting this country's inhabitants. If that were so, why is the CEO asking for only negative stories about bilingual education? Why not ask for successes also? It is clear that they wish to use this issue as a wedge between Latinos. To claim that you and Ms. Chavez are solely interested in teaching English is disingenuous.

> indicates that the facts are strongly on the side of our initiative. As
> you may notice from the "Articles" section of our web site, most
> journalists seem to have so far come to the same conclusion on these

In your opinion, perhaps. But that does not mean that their conclusions are morally correct.

> matters, and I hope that at some point you might reevaluate your own
> assumptions.

Very unlikely since I am privy to more flesh-and-blood "conclusions" than these perspicaceous journalists. Their future, upon which this country's future also depends, is more important to me than the particular concept of "One Country" that you have chosen to champion.

>
> Yours Sincerely,
>
> Ron K. Unz, Chairman
> English for the Children

Sincerely,

J. Manuel Urrutia
Associate Research Physicist

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Page maintained by J. Manuel Urrutia. Last update: 25 August 1997